Official Luthiers Forum!

[QUOTE=Kevin Gallagher] Todd Taggert at Allied Lutherie is one of the best and most honest guys offering legally recovered Brazilian Rosewood in the world now.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars [/QUOTE]

I don't know how true it is but I thought I read something somewhere (I think ebay) that Allied wasn't able to get old growth BRW anymore? Also, I do think that Brock is on the right path here. If you are looking for documentation and want to stay away from stump wood Steve @colonoaltonewoods has some extremely nice old growth Brazilian, I have seen it as well as the cites paperwork. I have seen pictures of Don's stuff also and it too is really nice.

Brian,
   You're right in that Todd isn't importing the old growth Brazilian anymore, but is selling all of the stump and recovery woods. His wood os stable and looks great when used in a guitar, i've used it on several occasions. I've bought from Steve at Colonial,too, and the pieces that i got were great. Nice color and lines in each set. I had a log that I'd purchased from an old elevator panelling company who had been out of business since the 50s. They would spin veneer off of them and laminate panels for the wide spans on the elevator walls in building in both New York and Philly. No CITES papers or import log entries, but a simple receipt in his records showed that the piece had laid in his warehouse since 1954 before all of the troubles. I had it sawed and got more than 100 complete sets with 2 piece backs and another 25 with 3 piece backs. I've sold some off over theyears since and have even given a few sets to builders who are friends of mine, but still have most in storage for my personal use or to sell in the future. Beautiful brick red color with sharp cntrasting black figure and spidering.

   Be careful with the "old growth" purchases. The channels are so tightly monitored for LEGAL old growth Brazilian that very few people end up with much anywhere in the world. Some goes legally to Europe and tons go there illegally. That load is then subsequently sold to builders all over the world. I received an email from a vendor in Madrid offering me 100 sets of old growth Brazilian at about $300.00 per set. I had high resolution photos sent of it and it was beautiful stuff, but I passed when they said it would be lebeled as being another material to avoid it being stolen in shipping. Expensive jewelry and electronios, not to mention guitars are shipped every day to everywhere in the world without that kind of fear. What are the chances of a luthier or person in the the know about tonewoods who would be looking to steal it coming across that package during its travels to my shop in PA....slim, so the motives were obviously other than what were presented. Concerning certification, they said that they didn't need a CITES cert or any type of permit to move the wood. Figure it out if you can, but I walk well around such deals if for no other reason than for personal ones.

    If it's old growth, the certs need to include all dates as far as harvest and import. The burden of proof of authenticity should be borne by the vendor without problem if the wood's legit. I know most guys will just blow this stuff off anyway and dig deep on the internet to have woods shipped discreetly and mislabeled from all over the world for the sake of profit or the status of owning a guitar built using Brazilian Rosewood. Good for them and I hope they enjoy the guitars, but there are legal alternatives that offer tone that is as good as or better than Brazilian available today at a fraction of the cost for both luthier and their customer.

    This is all just my opinion so don't let it offend you at all. My experience has been that there are alot of illegal or non CITES compliant sets of Brazilian Rosewood floating around and you will be hard pressed to get to the bottom of their origin in most cases. There are a number of honest vendors offering it for sale, but there are just as many doing it in the shadows and for good reason.

Buy wisely and considerately,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

[QUOTE=Kevin Gallagher]     If it's old growth, the certs need to include all dates as far as harvest and import. The burden of proof of authenticity should be borne by the vendor without problem if the wood's legit. I know most guys will just blow this stuff off anyway and dig deep on the internet to have woods shipped discreetly and mislabeled from all over the world for the sake of profit or the status of owning a guitar built using Brazilian Rosewood. Good for them and I hope they enjoy the guitars, but there are legal alternatives that offer tone that is as good as or better than Brazilian available today at a fraction of the cost for both luthier and their customer.[/QUOTE]

Kevin, please don't think I am disagreeing with the spirit of you post. I am not.

However, I think the (perhaps implied) assertion that you are legit if you buy from vendors with papers, and immoral (or amoral at best) if you buy from vendors without papers. I would buy from you in a second, I would buy from Don Williams, Brad, Todd, and I would (and have) bought from Steve. Papers or not, I know who you guys are, know that you would NEVER sacrifice your reputation dealing in black market wood. This is a small world, no one can afford a scandal like that.

Again, I am not arguing the spirit of your intention as much as the black and white nature of your assertion. I am not offended by the statement, but I think it over simplifies the situation greatly.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Kevin Gallagher]
   -but there are legal alternatives that offer tone that is as good as or better than Brazilian available today at a fraction of the cost for both luthier and their customer.[/QUOTE]

Kevin,

Please elucidate on your comment about "as good or better than Brazilian." Someone with your knowledge and experience can be trusted on that, and I would love to hear about woods you hold in the same league with Brazilian.

Thank you for the help. It is appreciated!

Jeff

Well,
I (for one) really do apreciate all of the input on this thread!! As a wood vendor I would rather not sell a product, than to sell something that has been misrepresented. I have had some sell me one thing telling me it was another only to later find out that it wasn't what I had purchased. I quickly came to realize that in order to do this thing right, I had to to find that small circle of those who operate with honest integrity, operate that way myself and stand behind what I do, even (if at times) it means taking a loss.

Brock,
   I should have seen that myself in my post. It really is alot more broad than I'd implied (unintentionally). There are people that I know who are honest and have just come across a great deal on an old piece of Brazilian Rosewood or even a barnful of it through what may be circumstances that can sometimes sound like fish stories to the rest of us. If you heard the whole story about how I stumbled on that Brazilian log a few years ago, you would be amazed. I not only ended up with that log, but a 30 inch diameter log of highly flamed Maple that was 16 feet long and a variety of other woods including Cocobolo, East Indian Rosewood and Koa that I'm still using to this day. All as the result of missing a turn in a town I'm not familiar with.

   Sorry for taking a lazy route to express myself and my concerns by generalizing. I apologize again. What I was trying to nail down was the use of vendors who aren't familiar to you or are from overseas and just have a deal or some wood that seems to good to be true. Many of them can approach you from strange directions or through strange channels. I'm not a wood vendor, but I do sell the guitars that I build from my wood so I end up being the last seller of those materials to a trusting customer or into the guitar buying market. That's the bottom line for my concern for guitar builders watching out for their own integrity's sake as they seek out woods to offer to their discerning cutomer base who are just looking for the best possible tone and appearance as they make what is usually a very substantial investment in a custom made instrument. The whole chain is affected by the lack of integrity of a single link and that can include the chain of stops that a piece of wood makes before it finds its way into its final form whether it be a great guitar, a fine piece of heirloom furniture or even a beautiful plaque or box.

    I've purchased from guys whose honesty has been established and represented by their hard earned reputations without ever knowing if they had papers or credentials necessary to handle the materials or even asking whether or not they did.

   Sorry for the confusion. If you happen to come across a link to that article on the slavery issue in South America, please foward it to me. Sounds like a good read for anyone in our industry.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

----------

Jeff Doty,
   I've built with many different species and have enjoyed the experience of seeing so many variations in pieces of one species or another over the years. It is my strong opinion that Cocobolo can offer pieces that have very similar working characteristics to Brazilian as well as that ceramic like ring when it is handled that is typical of Brazilian. Even though all Cocobolo does not have the ability to yield the tone of nice old growth Brazilian, many sets do and I always take time to tap and handle all of the woods that i acquire to be able to label them with a short description of what are the most distinguishing tonal characteristics in the sets. From experience any luthier will be able to predict the general direction that a set of wood's tone will head as it is built into a guitar. Of course, there are an infinite number of variables that are encountered as the guitar's construction progresses and the marriage of all of the many wood components takes place so it needs to be a general tonal assessment to work off of. Tone is a very subjective thing and perceptions can vary widely from one pplayer to another as well as from one luthier to another.

    Other than Cocobolo, I feel that African blackwood affords tone that is commonly found in only the most sought after old growth quartersawn Brazilian sets of back and sides. Again, it exhibits that glass like ring as it's handled and powerful tap tones even in its roughest form. The sustain and fundamental power of a good piece of Blackwood will rival that of any Brazilian at any price, in my opinion. With that foundation for tone and voice, a guitar's final potential can be more accurately shaped and the desired tone more efficiently achieved by the luthier. Not that it's easier to build with, it's actually quite the opposite since it's very hard and dulls tools quickly and glues with some difficulty at times. It's just like building a house off of a very solid and accurately poured foundation instead of one that is a little more flexible and needs a bit of shimming and chipping here and there. That's why wood vendors almost hate to see us luthiers coming. Firstly, we demand the very best in appearance that they have to offer and insist on the most wasteful cuts that can be made with our quest for the perfect quartersawn piece for each side and back half. Secondly, we will take up their entire day while tapping for tone, flexing for strength and matching both color and grain as we form our stack of pieces to carry to their register. Thank God we have those like LMI, Gilmer Woods and Colonial Woods among others who specialize in catering to us and addressing our every whim as builders. I have a guy that I buy all of my Adirondack Spruce from who is tied up with the forestry service in Connecticutt and he allows me to pick my tops out before he offers them for public sale or to his larger buyers. He does plan on a visit of several hours and a lunch break every time we stop in though so he's quite generous and accommodating to me.

Please understand that these are just my opinions and I'm sure that you would find other builders who might agree and even offer more species that can be considered instead of Brazilian if the tonal issue is of paramount importance of the status of owning and appearance of a Brazilian guitar is not as great.

Again my opinion only.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars Kevin Gallagher38551.7824074074

Another thought on the brazilian being sold on eBay. I've noticed on more than one occasion that the bidders list is kept private. It sure has the makings of a good sting operation. Be careful.

_________________
Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

I have bought legitimate BRW including CITES docs from eBay but that is an exception. Barry Kerr in Australia whom I have bought alot of King William Pine, Tasmanian Blackwood and other aussie woods has a stash of BRW which come with CITES docs.

Last month I bought a set of BRW from a newer eBay seller who said that he would be shipping it from Brazil with CITES docs!!!...he said he also had 100 sets of old growth...

This is what actually happened...this American guy is married to a woman who is Brazilian so he figured he had an insiders edge. His contact in Brazil (who he had never met) told him that he was one of the only people in the state of Bahia that had the documentation to export and his terms were he sold in lots of 100 sets at a wholesale price of $200 per set. The American thought he could go to Brazil so his wife could translate whiled he dealt, visit her family while there, and come back with a bunch of sets that he could sell for $300 on eBay, pocketing $100 profit per set.

So he goes to Brazil, travels 4 hours to meet the man who shows him a pile of nice sides and backs...they are about to seal the deal when the American (not a luthier but used to be a roadie guitar tech) notices that the sides look a little thin...sure enough all of the side sets are 2.75 "...too narrow for a classical or flamenco even...far too narrow for a dread. At this point he objects and the Brazilian insists that it is an all or nothing deals and that an agreement was already made...The American thinks twice, is tempted but has the sense to talk away.

Once back in a major town he calls me at home...I was the first and only auction he had listed for a BRW set. He feels really bad and was afraid that I would leave a scathing negative feedback comment but explains how the whole deal had gone.

After he was stiffed (fortunately without losing his money) he called around to Gibson, Martin and a couple of others...When he starts to tell their lumber buyers his story, they stop him and say, "that isnt Sr. scoundrals name in Brazil is it?"...they all knew him and a buyer at Martin said, "no matter what price he offers, run..not to be trusted".

So in the case of Barry Kerr, he went out of his way to do the right thing...with the other experience it could have been bad but the seller was honest and apologetic.

As far as the un-named "bask"    seller of BRW on eBay, I have contacted the seller asking about CITES and proof of age...no response. eBay has a link for you to notify them about any listing that is illegal or contraband..unfortunately all you are able to tell them is the item number, not what you feel is inaccurate, illegal or contraband so they have little to no way to validate a buyers concerns. If it in fact is not old growth with valid CITES docs, then the buyer is at risk of their shipment being seized by customs.

[quote=Kevin Gallagher]Other than Cocobolo, I feel that African blackwood affords tone that is commonly found in only the most sought after old growth quartersawn Brazilian sets of back and sides.[/quote]

I agree 100% with Kevins opinions on African Blackwood. I have built 2 guitars now with this as b/s wood and it has produced wonderfull guitars with great clarity, sustain and projection, but more importantly subtleties/complexities of tone. I have one of the guitars and I get lost in there playing it in a darkened room. The tap tone is bell like - which is not surprising as they make bells from this wood in Africa! The wood has lovely figurings in blacks/dark browns and finishes well as there is little in the way of pores.

The wood is very heavy, and if this is not an issue for you it makes for a great projection of sound. Alternatively you can thin it down more than other woods and brace accordingly. I have had no trouble with gluing or bending (go slow and with a light misting of water making sure the wood is never totally dry) but I had mine thickness sanded and then finished off with a sharp cabinet scraper. Planes or edge tools would have a hard time I suspect. Although not looking or feeling oily, the wood is a killer for sanding belts - after 2 or 3 passes the thickness sander belts were totally gummed. Like Brazilian the wood can be a bit "cracky". I have been lucky to find 2 sets with 2 piece backs but this is quite rare and 3 or 4 piece backs are probably more common.

Another wood that to my ears has the tap tone of Brazilian is padauk. I haven't made a guitar with this wood yet but it makes excellent guitar-bouzoukis - a 12 string guitar in this wood
Dave White38552.2054513889

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

just a note for dealers. It would be very nice if you included with the discription of B/R and all other woods, if the set is quartersawn. I know some of you do this.

Hi Shawn,
I am the guy from Brazil you are speaking about. And just wanted to give my two cents regarding the Brazilain Rosewood. And by the way, thanks for being so understanding about the failed deal we had. My comment is not so much about how to tell the difference because that just comes from past experience in working with the real thing. There are distinctive characteristics in the look but, the best way to determine the "Real Deal" is by smell. If you ever smell it, you won't forget it. But, even here in Brazil, locals are often confused and deceived by appearance. There are many local names here for the same woods. And depending on the area, it is called something different. But, most know Dalbergia Nigra as "Jacaranda de Bahia". Bahia "a few clicks north and northwest of Rio de Janeiro and is where most of the Old Growth (most sought after)came from. It is now, by Brazilian Law, illegal to move any Jacaranda out of the state of Bahia. Only one person who is well known ( by IBAMA officials) as a common criminal has the permission to move any Jacaranda from the state of Bahia, but he doesn't have permission to export. One guy is doing 20 years in one of Brazils toughest prisons for transporting Jacaranda from Bahia to Sao Paulo.
Only one person in the entire country of Brazil has IBAMA permission and documentation that allows the export of it from Brazil. I have talked directly with the Director of Forestry (Floresta in Portuguese) regarding the exportation of Rosewood from Brazil. He informed me that in 92 when it was added to the CITES treaty, there were only two people in Brazil that started the legal process to obtain permission to export the inventory they had at the time. One guy didn't finish the process, for whatever reason. Maybe because of the complicated red tape and expense for the process here. Only one guy had the foresight to finish the process. And to this day is the only one who can legally export to this day. I have been to his home and seen his inventory. IT IS A LUTHIERS HEAVEN. Only one problem. He is a crook !! He has stiffed so many builders and several major companies. And they quiver when you mention his name. He actually made a deal to sell Martin a large quantity and I suppose they paid in advance, but he sent them Pau Ferro !! This is what he told me !! I have seen, touched and photographed his stockpile and it is amazing. The quality is superb but, he uses it as bait to get you to place an order and then he tries to give you the bottom of the barrel or sends you something else. He is such a miser that he tries to prepare the sets himself and doesn't cut the pieces the correct size and the thickness isn't consistent and is so thin in places that there is no way to get it to a consistant usable thickness. Anyway, enough about him. As for the CITES issues others have raised in the moral issues of using and contributing to the destruction of such a valuable resource. Don't kid yourself. I know first hand that Jacaranda is still being cut and sold on a daily basis here. Even with the severe penalties that Brazilian law has in place, the locals still openly deal in it. Just yesterday I met with two wood sources that offered me 2 cubic meters of fresh cut stuff at a great price. So fresh, you could suck the water out with a straw. Older inventory is still being sold here with IBAMA certificates but, only for the local markets. Even though the risk is great for fresh cut stock, the price is driving poverty level locals to take the risk. The economy is very bad here and wood is one of the main resources for income. It is a way of life.
Even with IBAMA's strict enforcement and legislation, it's not helping. I saw on the local news last week that IBAMA has revoked 70% of the permits for the logging industry here in the Amazon areas. 2 years ago they also implemented a self imposted ban on Mahogany. There is one area here in Sao Paulo where 90% of the wood vendors have their business. There are stockpiles of Mahogany, some pieces I have measured that are 45" wide, 6" to 8" thick and 20 feet in length, stacks and stacks, that the vendors can't sell. Not even to the local market. IBAMA regularly checks their inventory to make sure they haven't sold any.
Yeah boys...count your blessings. We may not see it in our lifetime but, our children will surely see the day when these beautiful woods are no longer available.
If anyone has questions, comments or just want to correct me on any of this...my email is:
info@port-o-miami.com

Best Regards,
Brazilwood